This has been something that I have struggled with for months. After carefully praying, seeking guidance, and examining the condition of my heart I am confidant in how I stand.
Lets get a few things understood first:
1. The bible does not call us to be pacifists! The definition is "a person who believes in pacifism or is opposed to war or to violence of any kind."
2. Murder is NOT the same thing as Killing
Murder - In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
Kill - to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of
Look at the definitions! Enough said. You can not use the cliche, "Do not murder" as a legitimate argument. Now that we have that established check this out....
Romans 13:14 says (A New Testament book for you bible Noobs) Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
If you are in the United States Military aka AUTHORITY they are "Gods Servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do wrong." (Romans 13: 4)
So here it is...
When war is Godly : IF its a just-war aka a pre-emptive war Meaning if a military action that is justified as being permissible for legal or moral reasons. A war can also be justifiable in order to defense against the weak or oppressed. Do I think the war in Afghanistan is a just-war? Yup. A bunch of terrorists fly some planes into US buildings murdering 3000 innocent people. Seems like we are defending the United States from this happening. Iraq, I am not so sure of at this point. Although no one can really pinpoint the reasons for the war in Iraq, the ending of the Reign of Saddam was pretty huge.
When war is morally wrong: An Un-just war, example If the US invaded Pakistan just because we wanted their oil I would refuse to fight for that war. That war can no possibly be justified.
I've heard the argument when Jesus tells his disciples... "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (Matt 26:52)
This verse doesn't sit with me very well. I think Jesus said this because it was simply if the disciples decided to use thier swords right there are attempted to kill the guards, it was obvious all the Disciples would DIE BY THE SWORD. I could be horribly wrong, makes sense to me.
You can not compare the sword to a military issued M16. I've had intelligent people argue with this verse. There are TONS of soldiers who have killed with it, and who haven't been killed by it. There is no intelligent argument against that.
The last thing I have to say... We should seek peace. We should pray for peace. We should not create conflicts. We should not launch unjust wars. I would choose peace before conflict, If peace creates no solution...Then the problem arises. Its a God given right to defend ourselves, our neighbors, our loved ones, the opressed, the needy.
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Evan. First let me say that I love you. I respect you and your opinions. I do disagree fully with your views on this.
I believe that there is no way to truly follow Christ and commit any kind of violence.
First of all. I want to ask you: Would Christ ever take a life?
Then why do you think you can? Christian means "little Christ". We are called to be Christ to the world. How did Christ act to those who attacked him? Read the Passion. Or listen to Peter, who saw it firsthand "When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate, when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead he entrusted himself to him who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23) That's how Christ resisted evil. By resisting that way, he didn't just win the battle against evil, he conquered evil. Why do you think resisting evil in the complete opposite way (retaliating, attacking, and kiiling) will work better than Christ's way?
Next where do you find a Biblical reference for this: "Its a God given right to defend ourselves, our neighbors, our loved ones, the oppressed, the needy". We are not given this right at all. In fact we are called to turn the other cheek. That means someone attacks us, we don't defend ourselves. We don't pretend that it is our fight. We turn the other cheek and let them attack again if they want. Check out Matthew 5:39, Jesus tells us not to resist the evil person but rather turn the other cheek.
Immediately following the Al Qaeda attacks on September 11th, President Bush proclaimed, "Our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks and rid the world of evil". This speech declares the reason why we went to war.
In this speech, history seems to play the role of God. It is the transcendent judge and mysterious entity to which we owe a moral responsibility. Our Commander-in-Cheif says not only do we owe it our obedience, but also history can actually call on us. This history-god of the state is what called us to war. The history-god replaces the supposed God of many of those running the United States: Jesus Christ. The government is teeming with self-proclaimed Christians whose goal is to rid the world of evil. You cannot obey Jesus and satisfy the state. Crack open the gospels-Jesus was detestable to the state in his day, and he is detestable to our state today. His teachings are impossible for the state to ever follow. What state would ever say, "do not resist the evil person: or "turn the other cheek"?
For a Christian to participate in ridding the world of evil through war, one must replace Jesus with the history-god of the state.
Another big thing, this scares the hell out of me:
"If you are in the United States Military aka AUTHORITY they are "Gods Servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do wrong."
Listen to the words of Adolf Hitler from Mein Kampf: "Thus I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"
You have taken Roman 13 out of context to seek your own support. Read around that verse. Paul is telling us to live as strangers to the world. He tells us to be different, not to blend in. The claim that the US Military is God's authority has no basis. Compare the values of the US Government to the values of Christ and the Kingdom of God:
-Matthew 5:39 "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
-Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. "
-Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy."
-Luke 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 5:44 "I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
This is not a Christian nation. We are a nation that goes to Church on Sunday, runs after the things that Christ calls us away from on Monday, and call ourselves the "great Christian nation". That is a lie.
As I said Ev, I've got love for you and I really feel that you have not sought wisdom on this matter at a deep enough level. One thing you have to look at as someone who will be commanded to kill is something that psychologists and theologians have seen for 100s of years. It is that violence kills the image of God in us. Violence goes against everything we were created for-to love and be loved-so it inevitably ends in misery and suicide, either literal or metaphorical.
When people succumb to violence, it infects them like a disease or poison that leads to their own death. Judas, the disciple who betrayed Jesus with a violent kiss, ended his own life by hanging himself. After his notorious persecutions, Emperor Nero ended his story when he stabbed himself. Hitler gave suicide pills to his heads of staff and ended his life as one of the most pitifully alone people to walk the earth. Columbine, the 2006 Amish school shooting, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the Virginia Tech massacre-each ended with suicide.
Violence is suicidal. Suicide rates of people in the military and those working the chambers of death row are astronomical. They kill themselves as they feel the image of God dying in them.
Sorry for this to run on. Summing up what I said is this: The greatest command of Christians is to love. Christ calls us over and over and over again to love. No matter how you try to dress it up, you cannot love and kill at the same time. It is impossible.
I want to close with the story of Father George Zabelka, who prayed for the men who dropped the atomic bomb right before they left the aircraft carrier. He prayed that God would be with them and guide them in their "sacred task". He spent the next 30 years in agony of the way he blessed that act of hate. He repented of the violence completely. This is what he said his last sermon before his death:
"There is no way to follow Christ, to love as Christ loved, and simultaneously to kill other people. It is a lie to say that the spirit that moves the trigger of a flamethrower is the Holy Spirit. It is a lie to say that learning to kill is learning to be Christ-like. It is a lie to say that learning to drive a bayonet into the heart of another is motivated from having put on the mind of Christ. Militarized Christianity is a lie. It is radically out of conformity with the teaching, life, and spirit of Jesus"
"Christ, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier" -Tertullian
"On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace" -Pope John Paul II
"Murder, considered a crime when people commit it singly, is transformed into a virtue when they do it en masse" -St. Cyprian
Sorry Jeremy,
I mean I love you too but i think you over the line pacifist view of the bible is most definitely over the top. I have talked to enough incredibly wise people. Ever since I heard you say we dont have free will its difficult for me to comprehend how you interpret things. I think I disagree with you fully.
If it wasnt for war you'd be speaking German right now still hailing Hiter. OHHH thats cool for you I guess.?!
Evan,
Don't deceive yourself. You are disagreeing with me totally for some reason that hardly related to the topic. And the basis that you disagree with me is untrue, I do believe in free will.
The reason that you are disagreeing with me is that you can't find a hole in my argument.
Try to find a Biblical basis to prove me wrong. Christ calls us to love and to peaceful living. Christ would never take a life. If Christ wouldn't do it, why do you think you can follow Christ and do it? Please Evan, answer that question.
Yo Evan. I just want to start off by saying that I think it takes a lot of balls to be able to say this and put it into word. I fully agree with Jeremy in everything that he says. I used to not. I for a long time was going to join the National Guard. I thought it was because I wanted to help defend my country because I was a patriot. I knew, or thought I knew that what I was doing was a great idea. I then had a revelation.
You have herd the saying "God bless the USA." We think that God loves the US, which I’m sure he does, but there is something that is missing in that statement. There are about 5.6 Billion people missing from that statement. God does not love us more than anyone else. I have never heard about killing someone out of love. I don’t think its possible.
You cannot use the definition of English words to make a hermeneutical analysis of a text. Exodus was originally written in Hebrew, so if you want to analyze the individual words that are used then learn some Hebrew and look up the ancient text.
In Genesis 2:7 it says, "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." When we take a life, whether that is murder or killing someone, we are taking away a gift that is God has given every single person on earth. This could even be considered the greatest gift that anyone has received. The gift of life and the gift of our first breath are so great and when you kill someone you basically telling them and God that they are not worth than gift. I don’t know about you but I do not want to be the judge of that and I know that the US gov't does not have the right to make that decision.
Lastly I do not understand how you can assume that the words of Paul in Romans 13 apply for today and totally disregard the words of Christ as being old and not usable. PAUL IS NOT GREATER THAN CHRIST! Just thought I would throw that out there.
I love you brother. I just want you to put some thought into why exactly you are doing this and what you expect to get out of it and how you expect to progress the kingdom of God on this earth.
Evan,
you realize that while the U.S. says that they fight wars from a just-war stance that as a soldier, you can't choose the individual battles that you would fight in. This is, of course, one of the criteria in the just war theory. If a soldier doesn't feel that the cause is moral, they should have the ability to choose not to fight. The problem is, the U.S. Military doesn't give you this opportunity.
The U.S. Military demands total allegiance. Being a soldier of the U.S. is the first allegiance, not being a Christian. I would simply ask where your allegiance lies first. Are you a Christian first? Are you an American first?
There are many Christians who hold to the justifiable war theory and that's fine. However, "preemptive" war is NOT apart of the just war theory. I would check out the criteria for what Christian doctrine says is "just war" not simply what the state feeds you because you won't find any Christian doctrine that supports preemptive war.
This is your life brother and I'm not going to try to force what I believe on you. I just want to ask you questions that might not have come up yet or get you to consider things that other people might not have brought up.
And I felt like your comment to Jeremy about hailing Hitler and that being ok for him was really immature. I mean if you're going to talk about these adult things such as war and entering into the Armed Service, do it with respect.
Also, because you did say that to J, I'm going to question it. So you're saying that if we hadn't have gone to war against Hitler that there was no other way to bring peace? Based on that statement, [it seems] you've got more faith in war than in G-d's ability to change hearts, which is the business that He's in.
What about Christians in Iraq or Afghanistan that choose to use Romans 13 to take up arms and fight for their nation? Or it could be said like this, "If you are in the Iraq/Afghanistan Military aka AUTHORITY you are "Gods Servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do wrong." What do you think about that?
Evan, you and I have been granted the ability to repent and turn away from our sins against G-d and man, have we not? Our hearts have been changed and as a result we are better for it. Death, whether murder or killing, is finite. The end. I don't like the idea of war because war is measured by corpses. This means that there are people who have their lives, the precious gift of life that Bryan talks about, taken from them and perhaps as a result deprive that person of the opportunity to have their heart changed.
I don't want to be responsible for depriving G-d of glory (i.e. ending someone's life before they've had the same opportunity that I was give, because my sins are equally detestable in G-d's eyes).
I hope that you are wrestling with this and not just fighting back because you feel like you're being ganged up on. I'll support you in whatever you decide. I might not like or agree with it. But I'll support you nonetheless. Make sure you know that, from all of these guys. No one is hating on you. We respect and care about you enough to discuss this with you because we feel it's important. Don't get emotionally defensive. Wrestle with it brother.
and you can never seek enough advice. so while you've talked to some folk, keep on talking and keep on praying. talk to those that care about you the most. and ask them the questions that you're struggling with. I'll surely be lifting you up.
Listen Guys...Sorry for that comment. uncalled for.
I really do appreciate you spending time to post how you feel on the Blog, I do a lot. It challenged my and pressed me to pray harder and do even more research about how I feel.
In my heart I feel that God inspired Paul to write Romans 13 specifically for a reason. God obviously tells us to obey government authority for a reason.
And honestly, how many times can we turn our cheek? How many more attacks would it take for this country to say, "Thats enough."
Im sorry guys I dont agree with you. It does not settle well in my hear to think that as Christians we are suppose to just accept death to the innocent, the weak, or the oppressed. What if Gods help for those people...were in fact the military?
Thanks a lot guys, I love you all.
and i really do appreciate it
Honestly, what I think is most sad about these comments is Evan didn't ask any of us for his opinion and that said, we, as Christians should just love and support him. This, whether we agree with it or not, is something that is calling to him. Whether it's God calling or just something Evan decided doesn't matter. I just don't think we should use our interpretations of the bible to try and talk him out of something he is obviously so passionate about.
That said I am very grateful for Evan and the men and women like him. I am grateful for the military and the selflessness I feel it takes to give to such an organization.
All I can do at this point is love on him and pray for him but I'd like to think I do that already.
Gail,
I responded to the blog because I care for Ev. I will love and support him no matter what he chooses. I will not and cannot, as a follower of the God of love, support his actions. I can, on the other hand, support him.
As far as "Whether it's God calling or just something Evan decided doesn't matter" goes, I strongly disagree. I matters a whole lot if what Evan is deciding is going against God's calling.
jmorelock, you and I will have to disagree then because being that you aren't God, you have no idea what he is calling Evan to do and what he isn't. And if it is against God's calling then thank you God for giving us free will. He'll have to take a lesson from his mistake if it is a mistake.
And I will leave it at that.
Gail,
I'm sorry if you interpreted my response as me saying I was God. This is obviously not even close to true.
I firmly believe that God commanded to us love and live peacefully. Because I believe this, I do not think God would ever call us to do something that is out of line with the way that he has called us to live. This would make God a hypocrite and that, I believe, is out of the character of God.
That isn't actually what I said but being that I feel you're on the defense and that we will never, ever agree on this, I won't further comment. I do however think it's awfully ballsy to assume because of one sided interpretation of the bible, what God calls people to do and what he doesn't.
While Evan didn't ask for any comments, he did leave the comment box enabled. And, I love Evan enough to challenge what he thinks, my ultimate goal isn't to change his mind (if everyone believed what I did, well the world would be very dull, not that I'm saying I enjoy war as an entertainment, but I think you know what I'm saying) but merely to challenge what he thinks and to help him in his journey. I would expect the same from him.
And I find it interesting that it "doesn't matter" if this is something G-d is calling Evan to or he's doing it on his own accord. I support, love, and pray for Evan, but I'm still going to challenge any serious life choice he makes, because if he wavers, that might reveal something to him, and if he stands firm, then he's thoroughly thought it out.
Free will yes. Sinful nature yes. Do we need community to challenge us and make sure that we don't willingly choose sinful nature...yes. (Not that I'm saying Evan is by any means an example of this, I'm merely pointing out flawed logic, I think) Proverbs 27:17 is my aim. And that's the only scripture I've used and it's not directed towards Evan. I'll leave the interpretation up to you, Gail, that way I don't impose my interpretation on you.
Gail posted a link here on her blog, and being the Christian, pro-military patriot I am, I had to comment and say "GOD BLESS YOU" and thank you so very much for being willing to defend our country. If I see you on the street, I will stop you and shake your hand, and thank you myself. That's what I do when I see our military guys.
I'm not good with debate, but I see clearly how pacifist Christians haven't read the entire Bible, or at least haven't read it with eyes wide open. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit killed many enemies in the Bible. Where would the Jews be today if God didn't kill the Assyrians, for instance? There is a time for war, and the Bible clearly shows this.
Jesus is not wimpy. He clearly demonstrated that at the temple, where he violently destroyed the goods of those who were selling them in the temple. Do you think, with flying debris, not one person got hurt that day?
God loves, yes. But His patience does eventually run out, as it will with this country. If we don't defend our ideals, which sometimes means going to war, we are not honoring the gift this country is to everyone who lives here.
i support your decision fully man. mad respect to you for speaking your mind
yo man
like what you had to say... i think there is nothing wrong with joining the military. I almost did it! i would just weigh the pros and cons of your decisions for doing so and your motivation for these decisions.
even though i probably agree with Jeremy and and Justin more, i think joining the military would be a very respectable thing to do. i love you as my brother but while Jesus was known to show his anger, he was 100% a pacifist.
who knows what he's calling you to do. joining the army may not be a sin, its what you decide to do while your serving that will determine that. I don't like it when people (not directing this at anyone)tell you that your calling is wrong.
I don't think it's fair to compare God/Jesus/The holy spirit's taking of lives to humans taking other humans lives. We can't justify us doing something just because God did the same thing. Obviously, God can see things that we can't and thus has a reason for all that he does. We on the other hand do not.
i guess the question i would ask if i were you (and the question that persuaded myself out of joining the military) is this: What kind of man will you turn into from making this life altering decision? Is this going to turn you into the man that God wants you to be? Obviously we all go through things in life and sometimes sin while going through them, but how are you going to turn out when it's all said and done? How are you going to turn as a result of this sin? A man of God? or a man of the world? Next time your looking at yourself in the mirror ask if you will look the same (spiritually)after two years of serving in combat and killing people (notice i said killing and not murdering).don't take this post as me telling you what you should do. i trust you enough to make your own decision, i just thought i would give you my thoughts because i love you.
i hope i see you in two years and your just as devoted to Christ as you are today but honestly, i don't see that happening for you man. i am literally crying typing this because i don't want that to happen to you. please prove me wrong.
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